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• What is the Message? What is the Message?

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Notes from Kathy:

    Let's move on to the heart of the book, something that may be interpreted in various ways.  What is the main message that Cobb is trying to portray in Paths of Glory?  Is it an anti-war book, as some have claimed?  Or does he accept the need for war?

    Are commanders inevitably trapped into making appalling decisions by the nature of their roles?  Is there any way for positive human character traits to show themselves under the circumstances in the book, or does the nature of the chain of command make that impossible?

    Could any of the pivotal characters have acted differently to prevent the executions?  If so, why didn't they?  If not, wat was it that prevented them:  their own characters, or their roles?

    -- Kathy Gursky

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  • 1 week ago
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• Section Three: Trial and Exec Section Three: Trial and Execution

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Notes from Kathy:

    The third and final section of Paths of Glory was so hard for me to get through, I found myself jumping up and pacing between reads, not to mention muttering out loud to myself.  Appalling as the conclusion of the second section was, with the cavalier decision to shoot some men as an example, the follow up of details of how those men were chosen was excruciating.

    To me, this third section is what makes Paths of Glory a truly exceptional story.  The varied, realistic, matter-of-fact human nature that is portrayed through the selection, the trial, and the execution is powerful.  Cobb carries forward with most of the key characters and now we see more clearly how their scenes in the first and second sections tie in here.   One interesting note is that General Assolant never appears again in the book once he has set the court martial in motion.

    So I'd like to focus at first on those human portrayals.  What other aspects of these characters do you find most compelling in this section?  Were there any who just didn't ring true for you, or did you find (as I did) that Cobb had a masterful touch in presenting a wide range of behaviors and emotions in the situation?  What about the ways the officers found to make the selections?  And the ways the three men faced their deaths?

    -- Kathy Gursky

  • Blog post
  • 3 weeks ago
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• Section Two: The Assault Section Two: The Assault

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Notes from Kathy:

    Let's move on to the second section of Paths of Glory, describing the actual abortive assault on the Pimple and its immediate aftermath.  The mix of viewpoints is again an effective device, particularly the second-hand story about Assolant ordering that his own troops be shelled to push them to make a suicidal attack.  I found Cobb's writing very compelling, which made it hard for me to get through this section on the first read.  From the beginning of this section it is clear that Assolant has specific, grandiose visions of how the assault should go, and is infuriated by reality getting in the way in the form of the weather and the Germans.  He gets increasingly irrational, vindictive, and intransigent.

    In this section I first realized that this story is a classic tragedy in the sense of its inevitability.  It becomes evident that no one has the will and power combined to stop Assolant.  Those with the will (Dax) can only lessen the punishment but can't forestall it, and those with the power (De Guerville) are mainly concerned with political repercussions, the possibility that with more scapegoats than four, the likelihood of choosing a victim with influential connections becomes too great.  Does any reader have an expectation by the end of this section that anything could happen to short-circuit the ordered executions?

    As in the first section but even more so, I think Cobb did an excellent job of presenting various ways in which men in authority at whatever level may either justify, excuse, or go along with difficult situations.  He does so by giving direct vignettes of each man's reactions and thoughts rather than an analytical description.

    What were your reactions to this section?  Do you have a sense of "well, that was 1918 and at least that's not the way things work today"?  Are situations today immune from these more universal human failings?  Are these sorts of classic tragedies still played out in conflict situations?

    -- Kathy Gursky

  • Blog post
  • 2 months ago
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• Paths of Glory -- Let's Start Paths of Glory -- Let's Start

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Notes from Kathy:

    Welcome to the Penguin Classics Book Club.  Let's get started with Paths of Glory by Humphrey Cobb.  First, I'll make the usual mention of our standard way of going about this.  If you want to talk about something that might be a spoiler for someone else, please state "Spoilers Ahead" or something equivalent to allow people warning to skip if they want.

    This is our second book on the new Penguin site, and there are some differences with the old Amazon.com blog.  The main difference is that comments on this blog are moderated.  There is apparently no way to set comments so that they are automatically posted for just this blog without doing it for the entire Penguin site, so for the time being I am your moderator as well as facilitator.  I get an email message when there's a new comment and I consider those emails a top priority.  This means that I will approve comments routinely and as fast as I can throughout the day, but it will be my day (U.S. Mountain Daylight Savings Time, currently) -- probably a longer delay for people whose time zones are hours off from mine.

    The longer-term way of handling this, which I will definitely follow, is to designate users as "regulars."  Once you're flagged as a regular, your comments go through automatically.  I intend to do this with everyone who posts so that the number of delays for approving comments will diminish in time.  So bear with me (and with Penguin) as the administration of the blog evolves.

    Now, on to Paths of Glory.  I suggest that we begin with just the first section of the book, through page 80 in the new Penguin Classics edition.  I know that this edition came out very recently and some readers may not have finished the whole book yet, so we'll try to keep spoilers to a minimum in the first few discussions.

    The first sections introduces us to a range of characters, mostly regular soldiers.  It felt to me somewhat like setting a stage, and it was done very effectively.  The descriptions of the places were matter-of-fact without making that a strong focus.  Cobb describes death, bodies, and filth as needed without using them to evoke excessive horror or dismay.  As for the characters, at first I found the different characters a bit hard to keep straight but that got easier as the book progressed.  They seemed to me to be presented both as individuals yet also as a type, so that they felt representative of a lot of soldiers.

    What are your first impressions of Paths of Glory, particularly this first section?  Was there one particular aspect of the story that you found most compelling, or disturbing, or insightful?  Do you already have a reaction, either positive or negative, towards various characters?

    -- Kathy Gursky

     

  • Blog post
  • 2 months ago
  • Views: 169

• Next Book Club Selection: Pat Next Book Club Selection: Paths of Glory

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Hi all,

    Penguin has selected Paths of Glory by Humphrey Cobb as the next title for discussion on the Penguin Classics Book Club blog.  I'll quote the book description from the Penguin Classics web page:

    "Familiar to many as the Stanley Kubrick film starring Kirk Douglas, Paths of Glory explores the perilous complications involved in what nations demand of their soldiers in wartime.  Humphrey Cobb's protagonists are Frenchmen during the First World War whose nightmare in the trenches takes a new and terrible turn when they are ordered to assault a German position deemed all but invulnerable ...  This novel offers insight into the tragedies of war in any age."

    My plan is to begin discussions in the middle of July, probably around the week of the 19th.  Penguin's new edition of the book is just now being released and Amazon lists it as available June 29th.  I hope three weeks is enough time to get and begin reading it; if there are significant delays getting a copy please let me know and we may slide a bit.  In any case, we will start with discussions that just focus on the first sections, so people can participate even if they haven't finished the whole book.  There are several people connected with the new Penguin Classics edition who may be enticed to provide guest blogs, always a welcome added dimension to our discussions.

    And lastly, the plan for the subsequent book is to select another Steinbeck title for discussion.  For this future book choice, I've asked that the book club participants get to make the selection from several proposed titles.  I don't have the official list yet, but after we finish Paths of Glory we plan to give you several books to choose from.

    See you in July!

    -- Kathy Gursky

  • Blog post
  • 3 months ago
  • Views: 400

• Coming to a close with Celesti Coming to a close with Celestina

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Notes from Kathy:

    We're coming to the end of our discussion of Celestina -- thanks for reading and participating, and especial thanks to Peter Bush, the translator, for providing so much depth and information about the book's language and context, and the translating process.

    We often end a book discussion with the question of whether the title should truly be considered a classic.  In the case of Celestina, there is a clear argument for its prominence in literature based on the time and place of its publication, as well as its role as a precursor to other literary works.  Is that enough?  Does a classic need to have a level of universality so that it can create a connection to readers of all ages?  And does Celestina have that ability?

    While I didn't resonate as strongly with the characters in Celestina as I have with some of the previous books we've read in this group, I did find a strong sense of familiarity -- the specific culture aside, these were people who behaved in understandable if not admirable ways, people I think could be found anywhere.  And I found the play-like structure challenging but also intriguing, and quite well crafted.  For me, Celestina does merit being called a classic.

    -- Kathy Gursky

    P.S.  In a few days I will be posting information about the next title for the Book Club; the plan is to start discussion in July.

     

  • Blog post
  • 3 months ago
  • Views: 117

• Religion in Celestina Religion in Celestina

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Notes from Kathy:

    To expand some more on the cynicism in Celestina, let's look specifically at the way religion is portrayed.  There are numerous descriptions of the immoral priests who come to Celestina and other prostitutes, with the implication that most of them are corrupt.  There is no character in the book who is particularly pious.

    Calisto reveres Melibea to the point where he describes himself as a Melibean, not a Christian -- he is quite aware that this is heresy but does not care.

    In the final poignant speech, Melibea's father Pleberio rants about fortune and love and the world being fickle betrayers -- never once does he try to find solace from his faith.

    This approach to religion is to me one of the strongest connections to contemporary writing.  It's not that there are no sincere believers today or that there were no cynics when Celestina was written, but it's not a voice that seems commonly expressed back in 1499 as it is today.  It's very helpful to have Juan Goytisolo's introduction to expand on this theme and give the very relevant information about the relationship de Rojas' family had to the Inquisition and the church at that time.

    -- Kathy Gursky

  • Blog post
  • 3 months ago
  • Views: 171

• Brief delay Brief delay

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Hi all,

    I've just gotten back from a ten-day vacation and will be putting up another Celestina post in a day or two -- just wanted to let you know it's still going.  One of the highlights of our trip (by train from New Mexico via Chicago to New York) was visiting the Penguin headquarters in NY and getting to meet some of the people I've talked or emailed with over the past few years.  I'll put up a picture in a bit.

    Soon, back to Celestina! 

    -- Kathy Gursky

    Update:  I just uploaded a picture of me with John Fagan in his office in the photo section.  Great fun talking about books (what else)!

  • Blog post
  • 3 months ago
  • Views: 150
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• Celestina, a Cynical Story Celestina, a Cynical Story

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Notes from Kathy:

    Is anyone in this story an innocent?  The overall feel to me is completely cynical.  Some of the characters start out with more noble sentiments (Calisto’s servant Parmeno) but are pretty quickly convinced to change.  Melibea and Calisto are perhaps less cynical, but then they have money and can afford love and honor.  Or is that just lip service?  Even their love doesn’t lead toward marriage but instead to immediate physical gratification.  It seems every character is more or less explicitly in it for him/herself, and expects all the others to be acting just the same.  And it’s this expectation that I think creates part of the ultimate tragedy – it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy that no one can be trusted.
    
    This is one aspect of the book that I think is possible for today's readers to connect with -- cynicism about everyone's true motives.  Yet paradoxically it may also make it harder to feel a sympathy with any of the characters.

    Another aspect that I think translates well to modern life is the way the servants are quite individualistic, not respecting of authority; they feel they are just as good as their masters, perhaps better.

    Do you think Celestina has anything to say to modern readers?

    -- Kathy Gursky

  • Blog post
  • 4 months ago
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• Celestina's Characters Celestina's Characters

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Notes from Kathy:
    
    Let’s talk about the characters in Celestina – they are by far the most important aspects of this novel.  How did you react to the various characters?  What emotions do they prompt – frustration, pity, annoyance, apathy, sympathy?  Do you get a sense of depth or dimension from any of them?
    
    The story seems to me to move very quickly through its plots – is there a real sense of any of the characters changing during the course of the novel?  I read recently a statement that at the heart of a novel is a character who tries to achieve something.  How does that fit Celestina’s story lines? 
    
    -- Kathy Gursky

  • Blog post
  • 4 months ago
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• Let's Get Started with Celesti Let's Get Started with Celestina

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Notes from Kathy:

     

    Hello, everyone, and hooray for getting started again with the Penguin Classics Book Club!  I thank you all for hanging on while the location got changed to Penguin’s own website, and I look forward to many interesting discussions here.

     

    As Penguin has announced on their website earlier, we will be discussing Celestina  by Fernando de Rojas.  I hope interested people have all had a chance to get and read a copy of this title, and since the announcement has been out for several weeks, we’ll get started right away with the discussion.  Also note that you don't have to register as a user on the new Community website in order to read the blogs, but you do to be able to post comments.

     

    For those who are new or returning, I just want to remind everyone that we try to avoid spoilers here.  In general it’s a kindness to post a “Spoiler Alert” at the top of your comment if you are giving away plot details that some readers may not yet have gotten to.  For Celestina it’s not really an issue; I’m going to assume that everyone’s read the whole book, short as it is.

     

    I’d like to start, as we often do, with first impressions.  For me, what I noticed first was Celestina's structure, one that initially seemed awkward compared to most novels today.  With such a sparse amount of non-dialogue, it took a fair amount of focus to keep in mind who was speaking which line (it was a lot easier the second time through).  I’m not used to having to pay attention to that, since most novels are much more explicit in attributing dialogue among the characters.  But I began to realize that in fact the dialogue was well structured and included all the clues I needed to keep track.  And then I started thinking about the whole context of Celestina, when it was written.  Celestina is pre-novel as we are used to novels. 

     

    Once I was willing to consider Celestina on its own terms, not in the context of a literary genre that didn’t exist when it was written, I started thinking about how people would have read it when it first was written.  And I began to make a conscious effort to use my imagination to supply the details that today’s novels tend to provide explicitly.  I tried to visualize people and settings and actions that were implied, and found myself imagining some wonderful pictures.

     

    What are your reactions to the way Celestina is structured?

     

    -- Kathy Gursky

  • Blog post
  • 4 months ago
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• Welcome to the New, Improved P Welcome to the New, Improved Penguin Classics Book Club

  • From: kgursky
  • Description:

    Notes from Kathy:

    Hi all,

      We're ready to get started again on the Penguin Classics book discussions, moved to this new Penguin Community location (there's the "new improved" part).  I'm very happy to have this up and running and I look forward to more thoughtful, insightful book discussions.  I've certainly missed them!

      The actual book discussion will start next week, Monday, April 26th, with the first post about Celestina by Fernando de Rojas. 

      Come join us!

    --Kathy

  • Blog post
  • 5 months ago
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